Planted Aquarium kaki

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LLCC
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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#81 Post by LLCC » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:13 am

bernGPS wrote: Gosh :oops: :oops: And I though they are the same since their tails are red.

Matter concerning the angles noted. Will they eat or dig up the plants?
After some time of identifying your fish, you will get the hang of it and differentiate which is which. I'm not too familiar with Angelfish. Those I've had do not display herbivorous behaviour. However, I've read of some that are observed picking at the young shoots of moss. But this does not necessarily mean they are eating the plants.

Actually, if your fish are not destructive herbivores, you will be able to have them in your tanks. All fish will consume/should consume some vegetables, just like humans, for a balanced diet. If you overstock your tank with plants (Plant densely), you will have no fear of fish eating your plants, as you'd not notice the leaves that's eaten in a dense tank / the fish get so saturated with eating the plants, they stop doing so.

Another suggestion about your potted sword plants (Echinodorus). These plants have a vast root system, and the roots do a great deal to help you aerate the soil (preventing toxic anaerobic patches in the soil) and eventually when established, it prevent burrowing / digging fish from unearthing the "muddy" laterite base layer. Therefore, you'd be better rewarded if you free them from their pots and plant them directly in the soil. You'll see them grow faster this way too. Their flowers are a delicate white and last only a day. Flowers appear as a stalk that quickly push above the water (Mine grows 4 inches in a day!). If you force this stalk under water, the leaves below the flowers will turn into baby Echinodorus plants!
bernGPS wrote:The water becomes crystal clear the following day. But the 3 layered filter layer (especially the polyester wool layer) is very dirty and needs washing.
Initially, you should wash away the dirt. But when the filter gets slimy, you should preserve some of that slime when you do the cleaning, as that is the good bacteria that purifies the water and keep fish healthy.
bernGPS wrote:Would anyone be interested with the location of where the fish plant is is collected?

Some photo to whit your appetide

1) Children playing at the freshwater stream at Sematan beach
01 Playing in the freshwater stream at Sematan beach.JPG
2) Hermit crabs galore
02 Hermit crab galore.JPG
3) Hermit crabs
03 Hermit crabs.JPG
04 Hermit crab.JPG
4) Prawn in the bucket. I caught this prawn found sitting in the stream by cupping my hand together
05 Prawn in bucket.JPG
06 Closeup of prawn.JPG
5) I managed to persuade my children to release this prawn back into the stream as I have no idea how to keep it in my aquarium
07 Releasing the prawn.JPG
6) These marine creatures were not so luckily though.
08 Thos that are not as lucky.JPG
We caught a Borneo sucker fish also hiding in a small moist hole in the piece of wood in the stream. Unfortunately the photo went missing. :cry:

I hope you enjoyed that.
Thanks for posting up the pictures. Your prawn looks like a marine / brackish water prawn instead of a freshwater prawn. It looks like Parapenaeopsis sculptilis (Rainbow prawn) to me. If it is, you'd have a hard time keeping it alive in a freshwater aquarium.

And yes, there's many people interested in where a fish or plant is collected. Scientists like to know in order to study its distribution, so understand it better. Governments would like to know, so they can protect their natural resources. Businessmen will like to know, so they need not spend money to prospect for them, the angler / collector will like to know, so they can go fish it up / collect it for their collection, and the naturalist will like to know, so they can go and study it in their natural habitat instead of looking at a preserved specimen in a jar.

BTW, if your prawn is indeed Parapenaeopsis sculptilis, then the Malaysian Government is interested in info on their Environment/Habitat, and their distribution (a series of Collection points). see this: http://symbiosis.nre.gov.my/Species/Pag ... tilis.aspx

I adore those Borneo suckerfish / hillstream loach and I've tried keeping Gastromyzon borneensis in my tanks before but have not been successful as I think I can't give them the correct habitat - a chilled tank with a fast current flow to simulate the cold fast running mountain stream.
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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#82 Post by bernGPS » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:27 pm

LLCC wrote:
After some time of identifying your fish, you will get the hang of it and differentiate which is which. I'm not too familiar with Angelfish. Those I've had do not display herbivorous behaviour. However, I've read of some that are observed picking at the young shoots of moss. But this does not necessarily mean they are eating the plants.

Actually, if your fish are not destructive herbivores, you will be able to have them in your tanks. All fish will consume/should consume some vegetables, just like humans, for a balanced diet. If you overstock your tank with plants (Plant densely), you will have no fear of fish eating your plants, as you'd not notice the leaves that's eaten in a dense tank / the fish get so saturated with eating the plants, they stop doing so.
I am learning more now bit by bit.
I dont mind some being lost when they ate them. But not like the Gold fish which dig them up.
LLCC wrote:Another suggestion about your potted sword plants (Echinodorus). These plants have a vast root system, and the roots do a great deal to help you aerate the soil (preventing toxic anaerobic patches in the soil) and eventually when established, it prevent burrowing / digging fish from unearthing the "muddy" laterite base layer. Therefore, you'd be better rewarded if you free them from their pots and plant them directly in the soil. You'll see them grow faster this way too. Their flowers are a delicate white and last only a day. Flowers appear as a stalk that quickly push above the water (Mine grows 4 inches in a day!). If you force this stalk under water, the leaves below the flowers will turn into baby Echinodorus plants!
Okie dokie. Will try to do when I go back in March

LLCC wrote: Initially, you should wash away the dirt. But when the filter gets slimy, you should preserve some of that slime when you do the cleaning, as that is the good bacteria that purifies the water and keep fish healthy.
I cleaned the filter furiosly. :cry:
LLCC wrote: Thanks for posting up the pictures. Your prawn looks like a marine / brackish water prawn instead of a freshwater prawn. It looks like Parapenaeopsis sculptilis (Rainbow prawn) to me. If it is, you'd have a hard time keeping it alive in a freshwater aquarium.

And yes, there's many people interested in where a fish or plant is collected. Scientists like to know in order to study its distribution, so understand it better. Governments would like to know, so they can protect their natural resources. Businessmen will like to know, so they need not spend money to prospect for them, the angler / collector will like to know, so they can go fish it up / collect it for their collection, and the naturalist will like to know, so they can go and study it in their natural habitat instead of looking at a preserved specimen in a jar.

BTW, if your prawn is indeed Parapenaeopsis sculptilis, then the Malaysian Government is interested in info on their Environment/Habitat, and their distribution (a series of Collection points). see this: http://symbiosis.nre.gov.my/Species/Pag ... tilis.aspx

I adore those Borneo suckerfish / hillstream loach and I've tried keeping Gastromyzon borneensis in my tanks before but have not been successful as I think I can't give them the correct habitat - a chilled tank with a fast current flow to simulate the cold fast running mountain stream.
Hmm interesting. Will check out the link

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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#83 Post by LLCC » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:08 pm

LLCC wrote: Initially, you should wash away the dirt. But when the filter gets slimy, you should preserve some of that slime when you do the cleaning, as that is the good bacteria that purifies the water and keep fish healthy.
bernGPS wrote:I cleaned the filter furiosly. :cry:
Yes, people tend to get "Shipfitter's Disease" when they start to do tank cleaning.

You must realise that the beneficial bacteria which stabilises your tank water's parameters are invisible, and are there simply because there is an abundant supply of "waste material" for it to feed on. If ALL these waste material are removed, they will have less to eat and die down. Worse thing to do thus is overenthusiastic cleaning, that remove the slimy stuff.

Initially when the tank is establishing its filter bacteria, you can't even find the slimy stuff called bacterial films, (think Nata de Coco). In such a situation, frequent water changes or filter washing will ACTUALLY slow down the cycling period. However when the bacteria have matured and started to form bacterial films, they can take more washing.

It seems to me that these bacterial films protect the bacteria from harm, as I've had to wash out a matured filter after a long blackout when the family was out, and that tank popped back into business like nothing had happened after power was restored. Other tanks that did not have so matured a filter bacteria (no slime) suffered cycling related casualties for the next week.

If you REALLY must keep Goldfish and other plant munching delinquents (eg Koi fish), but you want the benefits of an NPT tank (meaning no water changes, feed generously and let the plants do the water purification), you can consider building yourself an algae farm. Ask me to elaborate if you're interested to try that, for fear I'm posting too long again.

LL
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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#84 Post by bernGPS » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:27 pm

LLCC wrote: Initially, you should wash away the dirt. But when the filter gets slimy, you should preserve some of that slime when you do the cleaning, as that is the good bacteria that purifies the water and keep fish healthy.
LLCC wrote:Yes, people tend to get "Shipfitter's Disease" when they start to do tank cleaning.
You must realise that the beneficial bacteria which stabilises your tank water's parameters are invisible, and are there simply because there is an abundant supply of "waste material" for it to feed on. If ALL these waste material are removed, they will have less to eat and die down. Worse thing to do thus is overenthusiastic cleaning, that remove the slimy stuff.

Initially when the tank is establishing its filter bacteria, you can't even find the slimy stuff called bacterial films, (think Nata de Coco). In such a situation, frequent water changes or filter washing will ACTUALLY slow down the cycling period. However when the bacteria have matured and started to form bacterial films, they can take more washing.

It seems to me that these bacterial films protect the bacteria from harm, as I've had to wash out a matured filter after a long blackout when the family was out, and that tank popped back into business like nothing had happened after power was restored. Other tanks that did not have so matured a filter bacteria (no slime) suffered cycling related casualties for the next week.
Hi Lawrence, I didnt notice the slimy stuff on the polyester wool on my tank top filter layer. However I do notice some sort of greeny brown coloured slime undrneath of the filter tank.

SOme time ago, I experienced this. The polyester wool with turn a bit reddish after a few month of washing and being reused. After some time, the fish started dying until all of them were dead. Any new fish added in (after thorough cleaning) including the hardy local scissor-tailed goldfish also died.

The tanks was only liveable again for the aquarium fish after I put in the aquarium salt. I also resolved to replace the polyester wool once every 3 months.
LLCC wrote:If you REALLY must keep Goldfish and other plant munching delinquents (eg Koi fish), but you want the benefits of an NPT tank (meaning no water changes, feed generously and let the plants do the water purification), you can consider building yourself an algae farm. Ask me to elaborate if you're interested to try that, for fear I'm posting too long again.
LL
No I wouldnt keep Goldfish anymore but maybe will keep a few of the Silver shark or Bala Shark. I might add other fish as well. Neon is my choice but as mentioned in some fish forum, the Neon will become nice snack when the Bala is big enough.

Yes tell me about the algae farm. I find you post very very informative. So dont worry.

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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#85 Post by LLCC » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:27 pm

bernGPS wrote:Hi Lawrence, I didnt notice the slimy stuff on the polyester wool on my tank top filter layer. However I do notice some sort of greeny brown coloured slime undrneath of the filter tank.

SOme time ago, I experienced this. The polyester wool with turn a bit reddish after a few month of washing and being reused. After some time, the fish started dying until all of them were dead. Any new fish added in (after thorough cleaning) including the hardy local scissor-tailed goldfish also died.

The tanks was only liveable again for the aquarium fish after I put in the aquarium salt. I also resolved to replace the polyester wool once every 3 months.
Bacterial films only show up on matured filters. That is why young filters need a lot more care in NOT over cleaning or you destroy whatever little useful bacteria there is. Note that the dirt on your filter wool is not the thing that kills fish, it is the unseen ammonia and nitrite in the water that kills. Also, it is not the wool that removes ammonia and nitrite, it only removes the less toxic, physical pieces of dirt. It is the unseen bacteria living among the wool that is responsible for neutralising the ammonia and nitrite.

I'm not sure why your filter wool turned red and killed the fish. I do know that red tide, which is caused by an algae feeding on agricultural runoffs in the sea kill off fish by asphyxiation. This may or may not be the case for your tank. However, it is always recommended by filter makers to replace your filter media after a few months' use.

The salt you applied, works as a mild antibacterial, (that's why ikan masin doesn't rot away completely), so that may be why your tank is habitable again after salt treatment - the unseen killer is destroyed by the salt.

Do however, make your media replacements in stages. ie, never throw away all your filter media and put in a new set. This will plunge your tank back into cycle again.


bernGPS wrote: Yes tell me about the algae farm. I find you post very very informative. So dont worry.
This was an idea that I was toying with for some time, and someone told me that a working model has already evolved and is being enjoyed by many marine reefers. The basic principle behind the idea is photosynthesis. It is like this:

1) I use live plants to remove nitrogenous wastes, phosphates etc from the water. In order to succeed, I need to (a) plant very densely - meaning there's more plants than fish ala NPT. (b) introduce CO2 gas/organic carbon to speed up plant growth, so with supplementary bright lights, I can have less plants and more fish in a given tank than in model (a).

2) My experience with a Hi Tech (CO2 enriched) aquarium (model b) is that it's a difficult to achieve equilibrium, if I were not to add supplementary fertilisers (NO3, PO4 and K), which I was trying to remove without water changes in the first place. In the end, with a Hi Tech setup, I'm made even more busy, making weekly 50% water changes, doing daily fertiliser dosing etc failing which, the dreaded, ugly algae will come and smother all the plants, or excessive fertilizers will kill the fish. This totally is a backfiring failure for me, and so I reverted back to the NPT setup as in model a. Well, not such a total failure, actually managed to grow some pretty nice plants that would not be able to grow otherwise in an NPT setup, but my aim of going high tech was not to grow fancy plants but to bypass water changes while having a massive load of fish in the tank, so that idea failed.

3) Then I got to thinking... Since algae are aggressive, grows profusely and are faster growing than plants, compete with plants for the same things: space to grow, light for photosynthesis, fish wastes, and they take these all in (like plants) and in return, they give out purified, oxygenated water, then, why not farm algae intensively to purify water instead? If I can do that away from public view, the ugliness of algae will not be seen, and instead the beauty (yes, fish living in CLEAN, Purified water are beautiful) of a full tank of fish can be appreciated, without having to do weekly water changes, etc.

4) My idea is a simple one. Using strips of an old vertical blind, I run filtered water over it and shine a bright light. The coarse nature of the blind's fabric will be great substrate for algae to grow on. If I set it up by seeding with algae, and with good conditions, I should be able to get a turf of algae growing on the strips within 1 month.

It works this way: The filtered water, which still contains Nitrates and Phosphates which the beneficial bacteria cannot remove, will be rapidly absorbed by the algae growing on the blinds. The thin film of water flowing down the blind fabric will allow better atmospheric carbon to be taken, enhancing plant growth. To lagi speed up the absorption, I only need to increase the lighting intensity or bring it closer to the blinds. Maybe, add a fan to blow on the strips so the heat of the lamps don't get too hot (plants and algae grow better in cool water), and what I'll get is cooler, purified water, without having to worry about plants getting eaten by goldfish!

5) If I set up let's say 2-4 blinds, I can periodically take one strip out to trim the algae growth, without seriously affecting the filtration ability of the algae filter. And like plants, pruning the algae will get them to grow more profusely, therefore improving the filter's capability. The trimmed off algae, I can boil, then when cooled, mix with water for a nutritious drink for my potted plants, so it doesn't go to waste. (or if you have a compost heap, you can bury it and produce you own clean organically fertile soil).

That's the idea of the algae farm. I've not gotten to building one yet, so I may be wrong. Next time I'll try to search for more info from the marine reefers who have started this on their saltwater tanks to see how well it works for them.

Hope you can grasp the principles of what I'm talking about.

LL
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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#86 Post by bernGPS » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:30 pm

LLCC wrote:Bacterial films only show up on matured filters. That is why young filters need a lot more care in NOT over cleaning or you destroy whatever little useful bacteria there is. Note that the dirt on your filter wool is not the thing that kills fish, it is the unseen ammonia and nitrite in the water that kills. Also, it is not the wool that removes ammonia and nitrite, it only removes the less toxic, physical pieces of dirt. It is the unseen bacteria living among the wool that is responsible for neutralising the ammonia and nitrite.

I'm not sure why your filter wool turned red and killed the fish. I do know that red tide, which is caused by an algae feeding on agricultural runoffs in the sea kill off fish by asphyxiation. This may or may not be the case for your tank. However, it is always recommended by filter makers to replace your filter media after a few months' use.

The salt you applied, works as a mild antibacterial, (that's why ikan masin doesn't rot away completely), so that may be why your tank is habitable again after salt treatment - the unseen killer is destroyed by the salt.

Do however, make your media replacements in stages. ie, never throw away all your filter media and put in a new set. This will plunge your tank back into cycle again.
Noted the info of the bateria film on he filter and I will inform my maid not to clean it too vigorously next time.

Actually, my filter media is made up of 3 layers : filter wool, another coarse layer that resemble the green dish washing scourer and the last layer is made up of a coarse plastic mesh. I will take a picture when I go back to Kuching soon.

I do normally maintain the other 2 sets of the media.
LLCC wrote:This was an idea that I was toying with for some time, and someone told me that a working model has already evolved and is being enjoyed by many marine reefers. The basic principle behind the idea is photosynthesis. It is like this:

1) I use live plants to remove nitrogenous wastes, phosphates etc from the water. In order to succeed, I need to (a) plant very densely - meaning there's more plants than fish ala NPT. (b) introduce CO2 gas/organic carbon to speed up plant growth, so with supplementary bright lights, I can have less plants and more fish in a given tank than in model (a).

2) My experience with a Hi Tech (CO2 enriched) aquarium (model b) is that it's a difficult to achieve equilibrium, if I were not to add supplementary fertilisers (NO3, PO4 and K), which I was trying to remove without water changes in the first place. In the end, with a Hi Tech setup, I'm made even more busy, making weekly 50% water changes, doing daily fertiliser dosing etc failing which, the dreaded, ugly algae will come and smother all the plants, or excessive fertilizers will kill the fish. This totally is a backfiring failure for me, and so I reverted back to the NPT setup as in model a. Well, not such a total failure, actually managed to grow some pretty nice plants that would not be able to grow otherwise in an NPT setup, but my aim of going high tech was not to grow fancy plants but to bypass water changes while having a massive load of fish in the tank, so that idea failed.

3) Then I got to thinking... Since algae are aggressive, grows profusely and are faster growing than plants, compete with plants for the same things: space to grow, light for photosynthesis, fish wastes, and they take these all in (like plants) and in return, they give out purified, oxygenated water, then, why not farm algae intensively to purify water instead? If I can do that away from public view, the ugliness of algae will not be seen, and instead the beauty (yes, fish living in CLEAN, Purified water are beautiful) of a full tank of fish can be appreciated, without having to do weekly water changes, etc.

4) My idea is a simple one. Using strips of an old vertical blind, I run filtered water over it and shine a bright light. The coarse nature of the blind's fabric will be great substrate for algae to grow on. If I set it up by seeding with algae, and with good conditions, I should be able to get a turf of algae growing on the strips within 1 month.

It works this way: The filtered water, which still contains Nitrates and Phosphates which the beneficial bacteria cannot remove, will be rapidly absorbed by the algae growing on the blinds. The thin film of water flowing down the blind fabric will allow better atmospheric carbon to be taken, enhancing plant growth. To lagi speed up the absorption, I only need to increase the lighting intensity or bring it closer to the blinds. Maybe, add a fan to blow on the strips so the heat of the lamps don't get too hot (plants and algae grow better in cool water), and what I'll get is cooler, purified water, without having to worry about plants getting eaten by goldfish!

5) If I set up let's say 2-4 blinds, I can periodically take one strip out to trim the algae growth, without seriously affecting the filtration ability of the algae filter. And like plants, pruning the algae will get them to grow more profusely, therefore improving the filter's capability. The trimmed off algae, I can boil, then when cooled, mix with water for a nutritious drink for my potted plants, so it doesn't go to waste. (or if you have a compost heap, you can bury it and produce you own clean organically fertile soil).

That's the idea of the algae farm. I've not gotten to building one yet, so I may be wrong. Next time I'll try to search for more info from the marine reefers who have started this on their saltwater tanks to see how well it works for them.

Hope you can grasp the principles of what I'm talking about.

LL
Yes, I can grasp the idea and it seems workable. Might not have much ime during my next tripp back to do that. I will update on any changes.

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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#87 Post by LLCC » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:29 am

The algae farm idea is not a new thing. Found a thread in our local reef keeping portal Singapore Reef Club, and here is the link:
http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.p ... opic=73162. There are over 27 pages worth of posting to this thread!!! which aims to keep Nitrate and phosphates as near zero ppm as possible.

Basically, such low levels may be necessary for a marine reef tank, but in a freshwater environment, it is not that important, in fact, I'd rather not keep water parameters that pure, so as to avoid acclimatising problems should you introduce new fish.

However, the principle is similar to my idea of an algae farm, and can be put to work, purifying the water of messy eaters and pollution monsters who also destroy live plants (yes, some fish just eat more messily than others and some fish just have the ability to poo more than others) so you need not replace water often. Best of all, with an efficient algae farm filtering your water, you can afford to feed more to your fish and grow them fast.

Furthermore, the thread starter, SantaMonica have a better idea in starting the algae colony, by "seeding" the curtain as he/she smears algae onto the new "algae filter screens". This method will surely be faster than my tentative thoughts of applying ammonia onto the curtain and letting it grow algae, while sitting in a pail of water under full sun, before attaching it to the setup. Perhaps a combination of ammonia application and seeding can speed up the algae colonising time which the thread posts as 10-11 days. (But do not apply stock ammonia from a bottle onto live algae. the Overdose will kill the algae).

Do take a look and try it!

LL
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Re: Planted Aquarium kaki

#88 Post by bernGPS » Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:07 pm

Finally, my Planted Aquarium is now successful (I think). I only change the water (replace about half) once every 5 months or when the water smells fishy. Will post some pic later.

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